Anyone in Adelaide want to go home?

[Guest lulu and bailey]

totally agree, i think some poms seem frightened to say "ITS NOT ALL ITS CRACKED UP TO BE", at the end of the day you do just have to get on with it or go back ...its your choice

its great for kids, the weathers good but i agree re schools , housing etc and you pay tax on every thing.

[Guest guest569]

totally agree, i think some poms seem frightened to say "ITS NOT ALL ITS CRACKED UP TO BE", at the end of the day you do just have to get on with it or go back ...its your choice

its great for kids, the weathers good but i agree re schools , housing etc and you pay tax on every thing.

I think it is all its cracked up to be if you have done your research properly and know roughly what your coming to. I on the other hand didn't do any research and accept its better than where i left behind BUT not what i expected it to be . There is a difference and like you said i have to get on with it or go back. For the kids it will be the first of the two.

[Guest SA Great]

Well we have been here for 17 years and I totally agree that you should call Australia home from day one. We have friends who have been here for the same time and still call England home. To me home is where you live. And it helps you settle because you feel part of the country. To be honest you will never be regarded as Australian (by the aussies) but the more you regard Australia as home the more you will be accepted. I have recently returned from 2 months in UK/Europe and had a fantastic time, at one stage I even contemplated moving back to the UK!!! but as soon as we arrived back here then we both realised what you have here that you couldn't have in the UK. You just have to think why you emigrated(everyone's reason is different!) what it is that you like about Australia and make sure you do the things you like. To me Australia isn't about coming home from work and sat in front of the TV watching soaps, it's about going to the beach after work on a 38C day, it's about enjoying the space, it's about living a lifestyle that you can't do in the UK. Go to the footy (aussie rules), go water skiing (even if you can't do it!!), sample the massive array of different restaurants and try foods that you wouldn't dream of eating!! Just try and get out of your comfort zone and try things. Try and get a range of friends from Poms to Aussies to whoever because you will do different things with different people. At the end of the day if it really isn't for you then you can hop back on a plane and return to the UK, but at least you have given it a go.

[Guest HALT]

I agree with most of what has been said. I think if i had come straight to Adelaide from the Uk I may feel differently however we lived in melbourne first.

Adelaide is safe but boring. Australia has a lot to offer but Adelaide would not be my city of choice. I love the cosmopolitan feel of melbourne, sidney and brisbane. Somehow Adelaide doesn't have that.

Adelaide is great for young families starting out but if i was a young adult i couldn't get out of here fast enough.

I think if you have a "working class" job in the UK things can be better for you in OZ but if you are a professional in the UK then i think that lack of professionalism, anal approach to technology and the fact they are still living in the 70s can drive you mad.

Hey!! What is life without these adventures though.

[Guest SA Great]

I agree with most of what has been said. I think if i had come straight to Adelaide from the Uk I may feel differently however we lived in melbourne first.

Adelaide is safe but boring. Australia has a lot to offer but Adelaide would not be my city of choice. I love the cosmopolitan feel of melbourne, sidney and brisbane. Somehow Adelaide doesn't have that.

Adelaide is great for young families starting out but if i was a young adult i couldn't get out of here fast enough.

I think if you have a "working class" job in the UK things can be better for you in OZ but if you are a professional in the UK then i think that lack of professionalism, anal approach to technology and the fact they are still living in the 70s can drive you mad.

Hey!! What is life without these adventures though.

Yes I have to agree with you about the working class and professional job bit!! Very true.

[Guest Chelseadownunder]

I have heard Australia discribed as same Shi* but shinyer bucket. We are about to arrive in Adelaide in November. Whilst not ever gone before we have travelled twice to different parts of Oz. We loved Perth but could not afford the houses now. What we want from Oz is more opportunites than UK. Weather so that when you say this weekend were having a barbie/people round you can rely on the weather (Generally). What we tend to do in the UK is every weekend shop. We do up our homes bigger and bigger for what. Get a better car than neighbours. Leisure time comes and we either work some more, shop, go to overpriced amusments for the kids or sit in massive ques of traffic. Political correctness gone mental. A government that seems to be stearing the UK in to the poor house. Overpriced houses. What are the rest of you still in the UK doing every summer weekend, it has rained just about every weekend, so we work all week and just stay in on the weekend is that a life??:chatterbox:

I am concerned that Adelaide may be a bit of a culture shock but I hope the positives will outway the negs. All comments welcomed.

Scott UK

[Guest Carkyde]

It makes me laugh when you tell people you are moving to Australia, especially when they start to tell you the reasons why not to go. Why would anyone with ambition and a sense of adventure listen to people who think going to the Canaries to the same resort year after year and look for the restaurants that sell roast beef and yorkshire puddings is a cultured holiday!!!!!

 

It is the doubts that these "ignorant" people put into your head that makes you doubt your decisions. This also makes people frightened of making the decision to return to the UK as you worry that they are sitting smugly with an "I told you so" attitude. Please don't listen to the c**p they talk and go for it. So what if it doesn't work out at least when you are in the twilight or evening years of your life you won't be sitting with a head full of regrets rather a head full of adventures and memories!!!!!

 

Australia has a lot more to offer than the UK, it may have some drawbacks but these are more bearable than living in this country that is quickly going down the pan in every sense.

 

Rant over!!!!!!

[Guest Chelseadownunder]

What I think everyone from the UK is really wanting to know the answer to is what are the Australian drawbacks you have all experinced personally (Members in Adelaide). I know we are all different and so what might be a big deal to one may not to another, but I would welcome any comment on this subject. (Apart from missing family & Friends).

UK is so materialistic and basically becoming lawless, and has a cr*p government who rap up all the bad guys in cotton wool, it rains all summer and if you want entertainment they rip you off. Teenagers get pregnant for council houses and social (Jessa Kyle ITV 9.25am). Traffic jams. Whats Ozs downfalls?

Scott UK

[Guest Chelseadownunder]

Hi Carkyde

You hit the nail on the head. It bugs me too when UK people go to other countrys and expect the UK abroad, Sunday Roast, Pub Grub, Fish and Chips Bingo etc... I remember watching one of the New Life down under programs, I think it one of the familys that went to Perth. They were so negative straight away, slagging off the Ozzies and how they do things. I bet they are now back in the UK moaning about the UK. I know we will have to be very positive and accept change, but that is the exitment, to be a little out of your comfort zone. But so many stay in their confort zone only to grow old and say, "if only". Good luck to all the people making the move. Lets go for it!

Scott UK

 

P.S. I am cr*ping myself at the same time.

[Guest guest569]

What I think everyone from the UK is really wanting to know the answer to is what are the Australian drawbacks you have all experinced personally (Members in Adelaide). I know we are all different and so what might be a big deal to one may not to another, but I would welcome any comment on this subject. (Apart from missing family & Friends).

UK is so materialistic and basically becoming lawless, and has a cr*p government who rap up all the bad guys in cotton wool, it rains all summer and if you want entertainment they rip you off. Teenagers get pregnant for council houses and social (Jessa Kyle ITV 9.25am). Traffic jams. Whats Ozs downfalls?

Scott UK

That is such a hard question to answer Scott you wouldn't believe it.

I can't fault Adelaide and would never dream of moving back to Bedford. I suppose it is just that it is not what i expected, and i like it ( strangely enough as dated as it seems) but after almost 3 years i am not in the "love it " gang. And i do call it home as it is where i live and always intend to from now on.

[Guest guest569]

P.S. I am cr*ping myself at the same time.

Why because Liverpool will win the premiership and you'll miss it ?? Don't worry you can come to mine and watch it on foxtel.

[Guest Carkyde]

Hi Scott

 

I lived in Sydney for 8 months and loved it, returned to the UK as my OH's dad was diagnosed with cancer. I nursed him til he died but all the sceptics (or septics!!) were so smug saying I told you you would be back. I have really struggled to get back into the UK way or work, eat, watch rubbish telly, sleep and work, not go out in the evenings for fear of a chav stabbing!!!!

 

Australia has a few downsides but I believe it is all about your own positive attitude. I found the worst thing to do is start a conversation with ... In the UK they do it this way ...... The first few months are hard work but then one day you start to realise Aus is home. You are so right about getting out of your comfort zone, it is one of the most liberating memories I have. I sold my house, left a really well paid job (governor in a prison) bought a rucksack, walking boots and went around the world twice, took 2 years and we went to Australia 4 times as loved it so much.

 

The other good thing about the whingers in the UK is that we will be so far away from them they will be insignificant and I don't want them to move to spacious Oz, let them stay in overcrowded overpopulated UK!!!

 

The downfalls I found in Sydney were that they were getting quite Americanised!!! The language and dialect seemed to be Dude, Awesome, Babes whereas in Melbourne they were more G'Day, Streuth, Fair Dinkum. I felt the Victorians were more in touch with their heritage and culture and the Sydneysiders were trying to be posh!!

 

The tax system seems quite high but it is all relative to the outgoings you have.

 

It was a bit strange not having high streets as we know in the UK but there are plenty of malls and shopping centres that are air conditioned and have a good range of shops.

 

They also (most companies) pay fortnightly, bit hard to get used to budgeting if you get paid monthly in the UK.

 

I am struggling to find other negatives. The locals will say traffic congestion but compared to the UK jams in Aus are a breeze.

 

As for friends and family, use Skype it is the best invention for keeping in touch.

 

I am also c****ing myself too but in a nice way!!!!

[Guest guest569]

Adelaide is also very Americanised. Dudes , Babes and Awsome. Not that the Aussies admit it.

[Guest graandjac]

Lots of good comments here....:notworthy:it is very much like the US here but with out the Arrogant Americans (not all of them)...!!! everyone is friendly and wanting to help, and although lots of things are behind the uk , on the other hand some of the methods are so simple its genius....!!!. I think it great that people walk about shopping with no shoes on and sometimes in there PJ's because it sums up " they dont (aussies) give a dam what anyone thinks. But we the British look and judge on appearances so when and i dony mean this in a snobby way so many aussies walk around with a lets call it a very casual look- we the brits turn our nose up. And i think that thats the culture shock for many, clothes, cars and houses for mr average aussie arent the most imsportant things in life .....going to the beach with the family or having a cold one with there mates are. We are always going to miss our family and friends and we might have less in our pocket every month but the things we all quote as to our reasons to come out here.....lifestyle, for the kids, outdoors, weather, crime, kids ruling the streets.......all the reason why we come here we think are here.....its not paradise......but its a better place to be right now ......only my oponion af course.....so to quote the aussies.....No worries......No Dramas......To easy...cheers Graham

[Guest Chelseadownunder]

Hey dude (Ha Ha Ha) Awsome !!

I just noticed your little comment. It seems everyone I know is a Liverpool fan. I cant get away from you guys. Hope you guys have a good season. I still follow Chelsea but its not like a few years ago with Vialli when we beat you 4-2 after you were 2-0 ahead then came vialli and rest is history. Seriously though I am into football and would like to meet up with you guys if theres a good game on.

Scott UK

P.S. The ozzies do say Awsome better than the Americans

[Guest natdan]

Hi Scott , being from manchester and a mad city fan [ many a good game with the chelsea] i wont mention ROBINHO and our new arab friends to much !!. We to are moving to adelaide hopefully very soon [ cannot sell the house]. Visas need to be activated very soon [ dec 08]. Adelaide is our first choice , we visited a couple of years ago , best mates moved there 5 years ago [ red tho ] they love it and have never looked back , both work ,kids settled they just love the ozzie way of life and the weather etc.They have not returned to the uk as they do not miss anything apart from family , but they have had more visitors coming over there, there sick of all us poms. My mate tells me the good/ bads of adelaide and the GOODS definately outweigh the bads. True there is crime but isnt it everywhere but not like manchester / london etc , he also says its quite expensive to live , but again so is rip off uk. Since moving ther 5 years ago he as never been out of work as moved from one house to a better one , lives to a decent standard etc and is enjoying is kids growing up in a better place, he as many new friends and feels totally at ease .GOOD LUCK and i hope you enjoy and settle in adelaide as he as and we hope too.

Wayne.

WE GOT ROBINHHHOOOO !!!

[Guest paul_smart]

What I think everyone from the UK is really wanting to know the answer to is what are the Australian drawbacks you have all experinced personally (Members in Adelaide). I know we are all different and so what might be a big deal to one may not to another, but I would welcome any comment on this subject. (Apart from missing family & Friends).

UK is so materialistic and basically becoming lawless, and has a cr*p government who rap up all the bad guys in cotton wool, it rains all summer and if you want entertainment they rip you off. Teenagers get pregnant for council houses and social (Jessa Kyle ITV 9.25am). Traffic jams. Whats Ozs downfalls?

Scott UK

 

Hi Scott,

I'm living in London, was in OZ for just over a year and spent 3 months living and working in Adelaide, I saw all of the major towns and cities in OZ except Darwin, (I was put off by more than one Ozzie from Darwin telling me about the humidity problems, clothes rotting in the cupboards and people going crazy because you cant get dry)

 

I hated the UK when I left and wanted to leave as much as possible but now I'm back I love it, that said I still fully intend to Emmigrate in the next couple of years to Adelaide, my personal reasons are for the future of any children. I was sat on the beach with my better half and there were kids everywhere, I made a comment about bloody kids being everywhere, she pointed out that they were doing their PE lesson, that included, beach volleyball, sea kayaking, surfing; made my miserable cross country runs in the cold rain look like a punishment, I want that sort of future for my kids. the main things that you can't get in Oz that you can get in the uk are as follows:

 

In London you can get everything you want, there is literally SO SO much to do, (if you have the money) Theatre's, Concerts everyweekend, massive shopping facilities, massive history tours and thigs to see and do (globe etc), a variety of museums and icons to visit, odd ball things like Tussauds, the Dungeons etc etc etc the listy really goes on and on. that's not to say Adelaide doesn't have anything, it's just not anything like the same scale, people (brits and travellers) I spoke to when I was there complained that there was nothing to do, when I'd ask how long they had spent in the city it was always the same answer 2-3 days!!! it took me ages to get used to the pace and feel of Adelaide, but when I made friends with the locals life was really really good, the basic difference is in Oz you have a lot of opportunities, life can be what you make it, so you don't have the same access to materialistic things over there and it IS different, but I for one loved it.

 

I was shocked to see how people treated each other back in the UK and I had more than my fair share of strange looks when I struck up random conversations in pubs etc, it felt like the UK knocked my confidence at every turn, and thoughI love being in the middle of things here, I cannot settle back in even after 4 years back in the UK, it's not an exaggeration when the Ozzies talk about us being unfriendly, we're not unfriendly just very defensive all the time, it takes a while for your guard to come down and realise that every person you walk past in the street isn't going to try and roll you over, or the kids outside the shop aren't going to hassle you, mouth you off and throw stuff at you, I don't want my kids becoming like that, plus I like the natural outdoor things to do more than any Lakeside shopping centre!

[Anne B]

I have heard Australia discribed as same Shi* but shinyer bucket. We are about to arrive in Adelaide in November. Whilst not ever gone before we have travelled twice to different parts of Oz. We loved Perth but could not afford the houses now. What we want from Oz is more opportunites than UK. Weather so that when you say this weekend were having a barbie/people round you can rely on the weather (Generally). What we tend to do in the UK is every weekend shop. We do up our homes bigger and bigger for what. Get a better car than neighbours. Leisure time comes and we either work some more, shop, go to overpriced amusments for the kids or sit in massive ques of traffic. Political correctness gone mental. A government that seems to be stearing the UK in to the poor house. Overpriced houses. What are the rest of you still in the UK doing every summer weekend, it has rained just about every weekend, so we work all week and just stay in on the weekend is that a life??:chatterbox:

I am concerned that Adelaide may be a bit of a culture shock but I hope the positives will outway the negs. All comments welcomed.

Scott UK

 

I lived in Adelaide for 3 years and I did come back. My main problem was home-sickness and missing my family, plus there were financial/job reasons that made England much more attractive at the time. My Australian husband came back with me and hasn’t moaned too much about England, at least not until the past couple of years where the summers have been so awful.

 

I totally agree about shopping being a British pastime. We sit here at the weekend, with it pouring down outside with 2 young kids and scratch our heads what to do (this seems to be both winter and summer these days). We have exhausted all the local facilities and attractions. My sister always used to take her kids shopping at the weekend, to Lakeside or wherever, as a leisure activity but I can’t think of anything worse than wondering aimlessly round the shops with 2 kids in tow!! My son plays football which gets us out at the weekends but it can get a bit grim getting up early every Sunday morning to go and stand in a muddy field getting soaked or freezing cold. Life doesn’t have those hardships in Australia and I suppose the Aussies don’t realise how cushy they have some things. I don’t think I ever saw mud when I was in Adelaide.

 

It’s true that the general attitude to life there is more relaxed; in shops etc people are very helpful, no worries. Strangers will strike up casual conversations. Try doing this in England and 50% of people will talk back but the rest will either ignore you or try to get away as quickly as they can. However, my husband’s brother and sister in Adelaide are both really stressed out. They are both mortgaged to the hilt and working long hours. They have both bought houses they couldn’t really afford and the kids have to have all the latest toys and singing/dancing lessons, go to private schools etc, it all seems very competitive. To be fair they are probably in the minority, but life in Adelaide seems to be getting more materialistic. But at least they can have a Barbie and know the weather’s going to be good, they can go down the beach in the evening for a swim, go to the pub for a meal and take the kids with them, have a beer at the surf club and watch the sun go down.

 

At Easter we were in Adelaide and we were invited to stay at my husband’s cousin’s holiday home down the Yorke Peninsular on Good Friday. Everyone kept warning us we’d have terrible trouble with the Easter traffic. Being used to the M25 we felt we could cope with most things. As it was we were held up for less than 10 minutes at Port Wakefield where 2 lanes merge into 1 !!!! Some Aussies have no concept of the complexity and pace of life here and it can get annoying at times. Life there is much slower and they have it so easy but many Aussies don’t appreciate it, or else seem to find other things to stress themselves out with regardless.

 

Having come back to England and been back 11 years we are ready to go back to Adelaide. Neither country is perfect but we feel Australia is a better country to bring our kids up in. The UK is only good if you've got loads of money, and even if you have got loads of money what's the point of having a swimming pool in the garden if the weather is awful most of the time. I've just put our central heating on I'm so cold!!!!!

[Guest marty]

So we are behind the times and a little slow I feel from reading the posts, I came here 30 years ago and have not looked back, I know things were a little eaiser then PR was given before we left the UK and work was easy to find but I have been back to the UK many times (going in 3 weeks for a couple of months) but in general life is far better here, no crime and wider roads with less traffic and not to mention the climate. With emails and the net you are never far from anyone or any where so thoose of you thinking of going "home" give it a second thought if you stick with it you are far far better off.

[Guest alan smallman]

Hi J-in-Oz

 

I was interested in what you said about moving to another state. I guess it's a question we all ask ourselves when we are applying to come over. Indeed, that was a question I was asked during my interview at the Memorial Hospital when we were over in April this year. But If you could choose another state to live in (have you already?) which one would it be? and why? Given that everybody's perception of things and places are always gonna be different I appreciate that no place is going to be 'all things to all men (and women)' - I'm just interested in where you would go and why?

 

We are both committed to adelaide now having been over and met people and obtained jobs etc. But no doubt once we are out there we'll find out for ourselves when we visit places like Melbourne and Perth, Brisbane etc.

 

Just being nosey.

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[Guest Alipally]

Zac lived in a beautiful area of England called Sutton Coldfield with good schools, large parks plenty to do and he also had access to a wonderful city called Birmingham.

When you compare that to Adelaide than you can see where his opinion comes from. However, if he had lived in a different area with different facilities than the opportunities to living in Adeladie would be of more benefit.

Some people don't see or mention the problems that happen in Adelaide. My friend has just had to pay for her son to go to a private senior school because the senior school he was allocated was of a low standard, recently a pupil had been stabbed by a italian boy. Two different gangs in the school. Also large houses are demolished and more houses are built in that area, than the catchment areas for good schools becomes smaller. This is the reason why my friend was one street out of the catchment area of a good school, and also the reason why she was allocated a poorly performing school.

 

Just read this thread and had to comment on this post! My personal thought are that Sutton Coldfield is lovely, if you like middle class suburbia, keeping up with the Jones' latest Land Rover Discovery, competing with the exotic holiday destinations and talking about how much your property is currently worth (Oooops! nobody is talking about that at the moment!).

Just goes to show, that it's definitely horses for courses.... The thought of life in Sutton Coldfield, just fills me with dread, but plenty of people think it's fab:wubclub:

 

Like another poster said, Adeliade is just same sh*t in a shinier bucket:idea:

 

Just my thoughts, everyone is different!

[bill]

Hi J-in-Oz

 

I was interested in what you said about moving to another state. I guess it's a question we all ask ourselves when we are applying to come over. Indeed, that was a question I was asked during my interview at the Memorial Hospital when we were over in April this year. But If you could choose another state to live in (have you already?) which one would it be? and why? Given that everybody's perception of things and places are always gonna be different I appreciate that no place is going to be 'all things to all men (and women)' - I'm just interested in where you would go and why?

 

We are both committed to adelaide now having been over and met people and obtained jobs etc. But no doubt once we are out there we'll find out for ourselves when we visit places like Melbourne and Perth, Brisbane etc.

 

Just being nosey.

 

Cheers

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan,

If I wasn't committed to Adelaide (kids, good job, easy beach access, easy to escape the urban drudgery), I would head somewhere with a mild winter - namely, coastal Queensland. Prefer to be near to a city, so that would be Brisbane or Gold Coast - probably the latter because of great beaches and beach culture. I would avoid Sydney (cost, pressure, brashness), Melbourne (same and cold winters), Perth (isolated) and Darwin (wet season depression) as places to live. But they are all great places to visit at the right tiime!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Bill

[Guest J-inOz]

Hi J-in-Oz

 

I was interested in what you said about moving to another state. I guess it's a question we all ask ourselves when we are applying to come over. Indeed, that was a question I was asked during my interview at the Memorial Hospital when we were over in April this year. But If you could choose another state to live in (have you already?) which one would it be? and why? Given that everybody's perception of things and places are always gonna be different I appreciate that no place is going to be 'all things to all men (and women)' - I'm just interested in where you would go and why?

 

We are both committed to adelaide now having been over and met people and obtained jobs etc. But no doubt once we are out there we'll find out for ourselves when we visit places like Melbourne and Perth, Brisbane etc.

 

Just being nosey.

 

Cheers

 

Alan

 

Hello Alan.

We would love to live in SE Queensland (Gold Coast)

It is Australia as we imagined it to be.

There is so much to see and do there and there are some lovely suburbs not too far from the theme parks, so you can take or leave the action if you want to.

There are more job opportunities and of course the winter is warmer.

There are down sides I appreciate, like humidity 2 months of the year and of course, more people means more traffic but it is a small price to pay, if it means you are happier.

We moved to Adelaide because we had to (visa restrictions)

We were supposed to do 2 years here and then we could have gone anywhere.

Due to sinking any spare cash into buying here and hubby never having continuous/decent paid work, we are stuck financially, therefore stuck here.

I always have the hope that one day we will get there.

I have heard of so many people moving states, since coming here and most of them have gone to Queensland and wished that they had done it sooner.

 

My advice to anyone that if you have doubts about the place, don't buy anywhere until you are really sure this is where you want to be.

I admire someone that I got speaking to a few months back, that had just arrived, they were so unhappy with living here and I suggested moving somewhere else. I told them that I loved Queensland. A month later, I saw them again and he told me that they had re-directed their containter to Q'land. His wife had some friends up there, so on a visit, she liked it so much that she had secured a job and a rental,they then moved 2 weeks later.

 

I will never love living here, but we will have to put up with it as anything is better than where we came from.

 

J

[Guest Chelseadownunder]

Hi J

I need to ask you, was it just the job/pay situation that has put you off Adelaide. Can you say any other points. You mention another states and theme parks etc. Is there too little to do ? Got to admit the point above about stabbing doesnt sound good, but I guess worse things happen in Sydney.

Why Im atracted at the moment is House Prices, fast growing, up and coming, little traffic, relaxed lifestyle, not too much of a change in climate from the UK compared to other states, Low cost housing down the coast near the beach etc...

I have to admit the humidity in Sydney (And the flies) wolud put me off.

I value your comments J and all.

Scott UK

[Guest Southend boy]

Hi, To answer your question, my wife & I (sound like the queen) have been living in Adelaide for 16 years, great place, love Australia, plenty of sun (some times too much) good job, nice house (better than the UK) great lifestyle, nice car (company) and for you poms in the UK, yes we do have a winter, it gets cold, windy and sometimes frost, you may think lucky bloke, but my wife & I go back to the UK every other year at Christmas and we love it, back with our friends & family at Christmas time and we find it harder & harder to leave, WHY, for some of us its hard to break those ties, family, friends, pubs, soccer (westham) so don't think Australia will be the answer to all your problems, its not mind.