Guest ozdream

Can 176 visa with SA SS move to another state in the first 2 yrs due to job?

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    Guest ozdream

    My friend got SA State Sponsored 176 visa this year and arrived at Adelaide 2 months ago. However, he can not find a job related to his profession in Adelaide. But he got a job offer from another stage which is related to his profession closely. Can he move to another state before he 2 yrs is up?

     

    Do anybody have any idea whether there is any chance of removal of 2yrs work and live condition on 176 visa, if yes what's the process? What can he do? Or must get the endorse (like green signal) from Immigration SA?

     

    Dos this have any negative affection on his citizenship application? And what the role does the state play during citizenship application?

     

     

    Any successful case before?

     

    Hopeing for experienced answers.

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    I think some would see this topic as an issue and would strongly disagree that moving states is fair as they have taken up a SA visa from their total quota. Hope you don't mind me asking, what is his profession?

     

    If they are concerned that it might bite them when they apply for citizenship could they not commute, i.e. work away during the week, flying home for the weekend. Maybe this would be seen as acceptable as they are still contributing to the local economy.

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    My friend got SA State Sponsored 176 visa this year and arrived at Adelaide 2 months ago. However, he can not find a job related to his profession in Adelaide. But he got a job offer from another stage which is related to his profession closely. Can he move to another state before he 2 yrs is up?

     

    Do anybody have any idea whether there is any chance of removal of 2yrs work and live condition on 176 visa, if yes what's the process? What can he do? Or must get the endorse (like green signal) from Immigration SA?

     

    Dos this have any negative affection on his citizenship application? And what the role does the state play during citizenship application?

     

     

    Any successful case before?

     

    Hopeing for experienced answers.

     

     

    I think DIAC should make this clear and it should be a straight NO.

    Thats what 175 visas are for. A place has been taken on good will and that should be honored. DIAC should make it be honoured.

     

    Not the answer you would want but its what i think.

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    Guest Adelaide_bound

    Are you allowed to go on a longish holiday though to other states? What are people's moral thoughts on that one?

     

    We haven't had a holiday *at all* for 8 years and didn't get a honeymoon (not even a single night - sob :P), so were hoping to go off for an extended honeymoon before being all grown up and getting full time jobs etc, (doing a quick lap of Aus) but know when we do get jobs it will be in SA, even if it is not our first choice of job (the place is more important to us than the exact job), and will be forever more (well, hopefully :D).

     

    All drivers licenses and car rego etc will be in SA, so even if we aren't there, hopefully we are still paying a bit in, and obviously will be when we get back from frolicking, footloose and fancy free.

     

    We desperately don't want to do anything to jepodise Citizenship though :sad:

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    Guest Cadas

    This irritates me so much..... Not those who start off with good intentions, but financial realities bite and job = money = life.

     

    It's the sanctimonious posters who either have a job, don't need one or have enough cash to hold out but feel duty bound to pontificate over those watching dwindling savings and getting offers elsewhere.

     

    Really......commute to another state...

     

    Sponsorship is a two way street. If the state gives you a valuable place it's because they believe there are jobs for you, if the jobs aren't there the both sides are affected. The state has to deal with rent assist, etc.

     

    Granted there are a few who apply to say ACT fully intending to move elsewhere but most of the griping comes from those who couldn't take advantage of the system.

     

    For me, Adelaide's where I should be, but sure as helll when the agent rings up from Brisbane and says would you interview next week on a job paying 180k..... I book the plane without thinking.

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    To the OP. Sorry I can't offer a decent reply on the subject. My understanding on it all is limited and I'd not want to give possible incorrect info.

     

    I hope someone will be along later who can answer your original questions and hopefully clear things up for you as to the legalities and any potential problems :)

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    Guest ozdream
    This irritates me so much..... Not those who start off with good intentions, but financial realities bite and job = money = life.

     

    It's the sanctimonious posters who either have a job, don't need one or have enough cash to hold out but feel duty bound to pontificate over those watching dwindling savings and getting offers elsewhere.

     

    Really......commute to another state...

     

    Sponsorship is a two way street. If the state gives you a valuable place it's because they believe there are jobs for you, if the jobs aren't there the both sides are affected. The state has to deal with rent assist, etc.

     

    Granted there are a few who apply to say ACT fully intending to move elsewhere but most of the griping comes from those who couldn't take advantage of the system.

     

    For me, Adelaide's where I should be, but sure as helll when the agent rings up from Brisbane and says would you interview next week on a job paying 180k..... I book the plane without thinking.

     

    Can you tell me what is "ACT"? "Migration Act"? Any successful cases before?Or the clear legally details?

    So when did you arrive in Adelaide? 2 yrs up? If the Brisbane's company give you an offer, you may move to QLD, then how will you explain to SA?

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    Guest ozdream

    My friend have asked the Immigration SA about the problems. The reply is as following:

     

     

    Permanent Visa

    While legally the Skilled Sponsored Visa (subclass 137/176/886), allows you to live and work anywhere in Australia, you are reminded that sponsorship was granted to enable you to obtain a permanent visa on the basis that you had indicated that you were genuine in your commitment and interest to live and work in South Australia for at least two years. Through sponsorship from South Australia you were granted a permanent visa by Commonwealth Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC).

    You will recall that you had signed a Declaration in the course of the sponsorship application indicating that you would migrate to and live in South Australia for at least two years. Through sponsorship from South Australia you were granted the appropriate visa by Commonwealth Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC). Without this sponsorship you would not have been granted this visa. We can only question if the information provided in your application was genuine.

     

    One of the objectives of these State Sponsored schemes is to disperse migrants to areas that sponsor them. By migrants not settling in these areas, the objective of this visa program is being compromised.

     

    Having granted you sponsorship, it would be counter-productive for Immigration SA to now agree for you not to settle in South Australia. We hope that you will consider your moral obligation and the intent and goodwill in which sponsorship was granted.

     

    We advise you to visit/ revisit the employment services to seek more assistance in securing suitable employment. Ring 1800 658 887 to make an appointment. However, ultimately, if you do decide to move, you should e-mail Immigration SA so that we can update our records accordingly and not contact you further.

    How to understand the reply? Do this mean Immigration SA agree the moving?

    Most improtantly, we do not know the role that the state play during citizenship application!!! Have any negative influence?

     

     

     

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    Guest snowy10

    I appologise for some of the comments above on the posters behalf.

     

    You did not ask for any opinions and questions like this always get people throwing their 2 pennith in.

     

    The answer to you question is No, you do not legally have to remain in SA for 2 years and it will not effect your citizenship. It is a moral obligation to stay and work in SA.

     

    As Cadas has mentioned, sponsorship is a 2 way street, why would SA sponsor an occupation that is not in demand. When it comes down to it what other choice is available if you can not find work in the state which your are sonsored.

     

    Now for my views, I personally feel very strongly about state sponsorship, and should we decide to emigrate and I was unable to find work in my trade (which the prospects don't look too favaurable at present) I would look for work outside of my trade to make ends meet and keep my moral obligation with SA. If I could not find work outside of my trade I would have no choice but to look for work in another state - how else can you look after your family??

     

    Good luck with whatever you decide.

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    Guest Adelaide_bound
    and it will not effect your citizenship.

     

    But that's the point snowy - do we actually know this for a fact - ie has anyone actually gone through citizenship having not met their SS obligation?

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    Guest Adelaide_bound
    Can you tell me what is "ACT"? "Migration Act"? Any successful cases before?Or the clear legally details?

     

    ACT = Australian Capital Territory = Canberra

    Migration Act = I'm guessing here - the official laws that allow migration to happen - in real terms the DIAC's rulings on migration (ie the visas and eligibility of getting one granted etc)

     

    Hope that helps.

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    Guest ozdream
    But that's the point snowy - do we actually know this for a fact - ie has anyone actually gone through citizenship having not met their SS obligation?

     

    This is I want to know, saying, successful cases?

     

    As for the citizenship application, the reply from DIAC is "This is DIAC's issue".

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    I appologise for some of the comments above on the posters behalf.

     

    You did not ask for any opinions and questions like this always get people throwing their 2 pennith in.

     

    The answer to you question is No, you do not legally have to remain in SA for 2 years and it will not effect your citizenship. It is a moral obligation to stay and work in SA.

     

    As Cadas has mentioned, sponsorship is a 2 way street, why would SA sponsor an occupation that is not in demand. When it comes down to it what other choice is available if you can not find work in the state which your are sonsored.

     

    Now for my views, I personally feel very strongly about state sponsorship, and should we decide to emigrate and I was unable to find work in my trade (which the prospects don't look too favaurable at present) I would look for work outside of my trade to make ends meet and keep my moral obligation with SA. If I could not find work outside of my trade I would have no choice but to look for work in another state - how else can you look after your family??

     

    Good luck with whatever you decide.

     

     

    If you are appologising for me mate you dont have to.

    Can understand why people do it but some just get the sponsorship as a quick route and have no intention of ever going to that state.

     

    No you have no legal obligation to stay in that state FACT.

     

    But i think they should make you so it stops people taking someones sponsorship with no intention of staying in that state.

     

    Just my opinion and no one needs to appologise for me for it.

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    My friend got SA State Sponsored 176 visa this year and arrived at Adelaide 2 months ago. However, he can not find a job related to his profession in Adelaide. But he got a job offer from another stage which is related to his profession closely. Can he move to another state before he 2 yrs is up?

     

    Do anybody have any idea whether there is any chance of removal of 2yrs work and live condition on 176 visa, if yes what's the process? What can he do? Or must get the endorse (like green signal) from Immigration SA?

     

    Dos this have any negative affection on his citizenship application? And what the role does the state play during citizenship application?

     

     

    Any successful case before?

     

    Hopeing for experienced answers.

     

    Hi Ozzdeam

     

    The answer is yes, he can. There is no Condition on a 176 visa that prevents the person from moving to another State within the 2 years. No such visa Condition even exists.

     

    The DIAC website is misleading about this, in my opinion. Policy says that if a State has been kind enough to Sponsor you then you should at least make a reasonable effort to stay in the Sponsoring State for a couple of years. However, Policy is not Law and DIAC should not pretend that it is.

     

    The actual legal position comes down to the (written) Aussie Constitution. Apparently the Constitition says that an Australian can live anywhere he likes in Australia and can do whatever he likes by way of a job, as long as whatever he does is legal. A Permanent Resident counts as an Australian for this purpose.

     

    The only way to change the Law about this would be to alter the Constitution first, which cannot be done without an Australia-wide Referendum of all its Citizens. That is not going to happen over something as trivial as this, so in practice 176 holders swap around between States until they are able to settle somewhere they like.

     

    I suspect that the swapping probably happens in both directions - ie one 176 holder leaves SA but another one turns up from WA or similar. It probably evens itself out in the end.

     

    Your friend does not need permission from anyone. He merely needs to pack his bags and set off if that is what he wants to do!

     

    Cheers

     

    Gill

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    If you are appologising for me mate you dont have to.

    Can understand why people do it but some just get the sponsorship as a quick route and have no intention of ever going to that state.

     

    No you have no legal obligation to stay in that state FACT.

     

    But i think they should make you so it stops people taking someones sponsorship with no intention of staying in that state.

     

    Just my opinion and no one needs to appologise for me for it.

     

    Hi Thebacons

     

    You are correct about the legal position.

     

    I also agree with you that I think many a wannabe migrant (and many a Registered Migration Agent advising them) probably does shop around just to find the State which will sponsor the migrant and make it easier to get the visa.

     

    However, the Sponsoring State is not some sort of feeble minded stooge in the whole game. The States all have bigger, sharper teeth than might be apparent.

     

    Let us say that Bloggs actually wants to migrate to Melbourne but his occupation is being Sponsored by SA, under their own SMP. Bloggs has to submit a State sponsorship application to Immigration SA. The people who will consider his application for SA all live in Adelaide, since that is where the Immigration SA office is.

     

    If Bloggs is not serious about moving to SA, the chances are high that he will not research the place properly - which fact will stick out like a sore thumb when he applies for the State sponsorship. The Immigration SA people all know what is reasonable in Adelaide and what isn't - because they live in Adelaide themselves. If they don't think that Bloggs is serious about moving to Adelaide, they can refuse to grant the State sponsorship and Immigration SA are tougher about doing this than the State Immi people in most other States. There is no right of appeal against a decision to refuse State sponsorship, so Bloggs risks finding himself stuck.

     

    I've come across instances of people saying that their Registered Migration Agent has told them that they only have a "moral" obligation to the Sponsoring State.

     

    What???

     

    The Law doesn't know anything about Morality - the Law leaves Moral Questions to the Church to sort out. It isn't a "moral" obligation of any description. It is a straightforward difference between the wording of the strict Law and Policy's wishes. Some of the RMAs merely demonstrate how woeful their own "training" is, I sometimes feel!

     

    Now the critics who want to moan about the "morality" of the whole thing can moan at me instead of at you, mate!

     

    Cheers

     

    Gill

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    Guest snowy10
    If you are appologising for me mate you dont have to.

    Can understand why people do it but some just get the sponsorship as a quick route and have no intention of ever going to that state.

     

    No you have no legal obligation to stay in that state FACT.

     

    But i think they should make you so it stops people taking someones sponsorship with no intention of staying in that state.

     

    Just my opinion and no one needs to appologise for me for it.

     

    I feel I do have to appologise for you. This forum is meant to be a place where people can get advise on making the move to Australia and your original answer has now been contradicted by yourself. The OP asked a question which you chose to give your opinion and not the answer.

    I suspect you always knew the correct answer but your "opinion" meant that you gave mis-leading advice by stating categorically "NO you can't" in your intial reply to the OPs question??

    I have state sponsorship as part of the quota for 2010-2011, I will not emigrate in this period so should I now give up this sponsorship so someone esle can use it in this financial year?

    Shame on you for giving mis-leading information in the first instance.

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    I feel I do have to appologise for you. This forum is meant to be a place where people can get advise on making the move to Australia and your original answer has now been contradicted by yourself. The OP asked a question which you chose to give your opinion and not the answer.

    I suspect you always knew the correct answer but your "opinion" meant that you gave mis-leading advice by stating categorically "NO you can't" in your intial reply to the OPs question??

    I have state sponsorship as part of the quota for 2010-2011, I will not emigrate in this period so should I now give up this sponsorship so someone esle can use it in this financial year?

    Shame on you for giving mis-leading information in the first instance.

     

    Hi there

     

    I have state sponsorship as part of the quota for 2010-2011, I will not emigrate in this period so should I now give up this sponsorship so someone esle can use it in this financial year?

     

    DEFINITELY NOT! Hang on to your SS as if it were your life, my friend! The Aussie Government know perfectly well that their own visa processing takes ages and then the visa holder often takes ages to move to Oz permanently as well. This is all built in to the figures for the number of visas granted each year, so there is no need for you to worry about it.

     

    That said, have you made your visa application yet? If not, are you aware that the Points Test is going to change on 1st July 2011 and any GSM visa application submitted on or after that date will have to show that the visa applicant meets the new Points total?

     

    http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/pdf/points-fact.pdf

     

    If this is going to cause a problem for you, slap the visa application in PRIOR to 30th June. Don't leave it till the last minute because there were furious quarrels last year.

     

    DIAC gave people to understand that they could make their visa application at any time up till AEST 23:59 on May 7th 2010. Their IT people then closed the electronic visa application system - the on-line thing - at 23:00 AEST, which caused endless hassle for both visa applicants in person and their Registered Migration Agents.

     

    DIAC refused to budge about when the cut-off time actually was. It was 59 minutes earlier than they had claimed but they simply shrugged off all complaints about their misleading advice. Apparently "midnight" does not necessarily mean "midnight" in Oz. It actually means, "whatever time the IT people choose to take the system off-line so that they can modify it, ready for the next day."

     

    I was disgusted by DIAC's unhelpful attitude but apparently they took legal advice about the whole thing. So common-sense now is not to leave it to the last minute, my friend!

     

    There is one other thing. A State can grant SS and theoretically, it will still be valid 3 years later. However that is all very fluid. The States reckon that it is reasonable to apply for the visa within 6 months of the SS being granted. If that has not happened or is not going to happen, the sponsoring State expects you to contact them to explain why not? They then decide whether or not to keep your SS going for you.

     

    You can't do anything much if they change their minds about Sponsoring you. All that the applicant can do is to wheedle, plead with the State and hope for the best.

     

    Cheers

     

    Gill

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    Gollywobbler, once again thank you for such informative, insightful replies to the OP and other questions. Much appreciated.

     

    Hopefully this has helped those with questions asked in this thread :)

     

    Donning my mod hat now :) Would like to see this thread stay topical and not go off debating the morals of state sponsorship and staying or going elsewhere (that wasn't what the OP was asking ;) ). I think that is a thread better off on its own and not hijacking this one, so if you really want to discuss it, consider doing that. People obviously have strong feelings on the matter but lets be sensible in this thread.

     

    Thanks

     

    *removes mod hat*

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    Guest ozdream
    Hi Ozzdeam

     

    The answer is yes, he can. There is no Condition on a 176 visa that prevents the person from moving to another State within the 2 years. No such visa Condition even exists.

     

    The DIAC website is misleading about this, in my opinion. Policy says that if a State has been kind enough to Sponsor you then you should at least make a reasonable effort to stay in the Sponsoring State for a couple of years. However, Policy is not Law and DIAC should not pretend that it is.

     

    The actual legal position comes down to the (written) Aussie Constitution. Apparently the Constitition says that an Australian can live anywhere he likes in Australia and can do whatever he likes by way of a job, as long as whatever he does is legal. A Permanent Resident counts as an Australian for this purpose.

     

    The only way to change the Law about this would be to alter the Constitution first, which cannot be done without an Australia-wide Referendum of all its Citizens. That is not going to happen over something as trivial as this, so in practice 176 holders swap around between States until they are able to settle somewhere they like.

     

    I suspect that the swapping probably happens in both directions - ie one 176 holder leaves SA but another one turns up from WA or similar. It probably evens itself out in the end.

     

    Your friend does not need permission from anyone. He merely needs to pack his bags and set off if that is what he wants to do!

     

    Cheers

     

    Gill

     

    Hi, Gollywobbler

    Thanks for your answers. I have some questions:

    (1)Do you know any successful cases?

    (2)Where to see the "policy" you noted in the DIAC's website? Moving to other state in 2 yrs apparently violate the policy, so what consequence does this violence result in?

    (3)Most importantly, what the role does the Immigration SA play during application? (4)Any adverse impact (like honesty record)?

    (5)Why do you say the commitment of living in SA for at least 2 yrs is a moral rather than a legal obligation?

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    Hi, Gollywobbler

    Thanks for your answers. I have some questions:

    (1)Do you know any successful cases?

    (2)Where to see the "policy" you noted in the DIAC's website? Moving to other state in 2 yrs apparently violate the policy, so what consequence does this violence result in?

    (3)Most importantly, what the role does the Immigration SA play during application? (4)Any adverse impact (like honesty record)?

    (5)Why do you say the commitment of living in SA for at least 2 yrs is a moral rather than a legal obligation?

     

    Hi Mate

     

    1. LOADS.

     

    2. Read the Legislation and the Constitution - it only comes to about 5,000 pages of EXTREMELY difficult wording, so it shouldn't take that long...... Otherwise, get real, my friend! If you doubt me, instruct a competent Registered Migration Agent and ask him/her, I wold suggest?

     

    3. You asked about a situation where the visa had already been granted? In that situation, Immigration SA would have no further involvement.

     

    5. It is not a "moral" issue. Where do we leave this "moral" red-herring alone? Policy says that one should do ABC. The Law says that there is no legal need to bother about that.

     

    If you are stuck, I STRONGLY recommend that you should consult a competent Registered Migration Agent.

     

    Cneers

     

    Gill

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    Guest fatman
    This irritates me so much..... Not those who start off with good intentions, but financial realities bite and job = money = life.

     

    It's the sanctimonious posters who either have a job, don't need one or have enough cash to hold out but feel duty bound to pontificate over those watching dwindling savings and getting offers elsewhere.

     

    Really......commute to another state...

     

    Sponsorship is a two way street. If the state gives you a valuable place it's because they believe there are jobs for you, if the jobs aren't there the both sides are affected. The state has to deal with rent assist, etc.

     

    Granted there are a few who apply to say ACT fully intending to move elsewhere but most of the griping comes from those who couldn't take advantage of the system.

     

    For me, Adelaide's where I should be, but sure as helll when the agent rings up from Brisbane and says would you interview next week on a job paying 180k..... I book the plane without thinking.

     

    WELL SAID !!!!!! SECOND THAT !!!!! Graham, Aberdeenshire/Scotland

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    Ozdream...

     

    As I applied to another state first, near the end of our application being finalised, my trade was removed off their list, therefore we changed to another state and re-applied. I was however, concerned - What if we don't like it? or can't get a job? We where informed by the visa company, As long as you can prove that you have tried to get a job in your chosen trade, you can apply to the government explain the situation, tell them in writing that you have really tried your hardest to find vacancies of your trade but have failed to do so. They will then allow or dis-allow your move to your new chosen state.

     

    I hope this helps you... Good Luck :)

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    Guest ozdream
    Hi Mate

     

    1. LOADS.

     

    2. Read the Legislation and the Constitution - it only comes to about 5,000 pages of EXTREMELY difficult wording, so it shouldn't take that long...... Otherwise, get real, my friend! If you doubt me, instruct a competent Registered Migration Agent and ask him/her, I wold suggest?

     

    3. You asked about a situation where the visa had already been granted? In that situation, Immigration SA would have no further involvement.

     

    5. It is not a "moral" issue. Where do we leave this "moral" red-herring alone? Policy says that one should do ABC. The Law says that there is no legal need to bother about that.

     

    If you are stuck, I STRONGLY recommend that you should consult a competent Registered Migration Agent.

     

    Cneers

     

    Gill

     

    Hi, friend. Thanks for your quick reply.

     

    Maybe I questioned unclearly.

    As for the policy, what I mean is that whether or not there exist a Act or Policy to make this problem clearly? whether or not this violate the Current Act or Policy? And what is the consequences due to this?

     

    As for the role the state play, what I mean is that any adverse impact on the citizenship application?

     

    By the way, I do not understand "It is not a "moral" issue. Where do we leave this "moral" red-herring alone? Policy says that one should do ABC. The Law says that there is no legal need to bother about that. " Hope you explain clearly.

     

    Thanks you

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    Guest ozdream
    Ozdream...

     

    As I applied to another state first, near the end of our application being finalised, my trade was removed off their list, therefore we changed to another state and re-applied. I was however, concerned - What if we don't like it? or can't get a job? We where informed by the visa company, As long as you can prove that you have tried to get a job in your chosen trade, you can apply to the government explain the situation, tell them in writing that you have really tried your hardest to find vacancies of your trade but have failed to do so. They will then allow or dis-allow your move to your new chosen state.

     

    I hope this helps you... Good Luck :)

     

    Hi, traygo.

     

    Could you tell me your visa company? Maybe I will contact with them.

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    Hi, friend. Thanks for your quick reply.

     

    Maybe I questioned unclearly.

    As for the policy, what I mean is that whether or not there exist a Act or Policy to make this problem clearly? whether or not this violate the Current Act or Policy? And what is the consequences due to this?

     

    As for the role the state play, what I mean is that any adverse impact on the citizenship application?

     

    By the way, I do not understand "It is not a "moral" issue. Where do we leave this "moral" red-herring alone? Policy says that one should do ABC. The Law says that there is no legal need to bother about that. " Hope you explain clearly.

     

    Thanks you

     

    Hi Ozdream

     

    As for the policy, what I mean is that whether or not there exist a Act or Policy to make this problem clearly? whether or not this violate the Current Act or Policy? And what is the consequences due to this?

    Moving State before the 2 years are up is a violation of Policy but it is not a breach of the Law. The situation is exactly as Immigration SA explained in the letter from them that you quoted earlier in this thread. There are NO possible legal consequences if the holder of a sc 176 visa decides to move to another State within the 2 years.

     

    Should his conscience be troubled if he does this? I think that is a matter for him to decide, not for me. I'm not his conscience and issues of conscience are such personal matters that I don't think a third party really has any relevant comment to make.

     

    As for the role the state play, what I mean is that any adverse impact on the citizenship application?
    It has no effect on Citizenship.

     

    By the way, I do not understand "It is not a "moral" issue. Where do we leave this "moral" red-herring alone? Policy says that one should do ABC. The Law says that there is no legal need to bother about that."

    Don't worry about this. It just makes me cross when people describe "morality" when they should be describing the Government's Policy. Talking about "morality" just drags in feelings of guilt, which I don't think are helpful in this situation. I'd rather that we talk about what we mean - which is the Policy!

     

    For what it is worth, though, why are you having a nervous breakdown about this for the sake of one of your friends?! If he is worried about something, why doesn't he consult a Registered Migration Agent? That would be by far the best option instead of everybody getting involved in heated discussions about it on an Internet forum.

     

    Cheers

     

    Gill

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